@Lambie That depends on where you live. However, when you walk up to a group of your friends and say Hey, guys!, Not all developers have the privilege to be able to trust and feel safe around their peers without consequences; I feel like a lot of the folks carelessly wielding guys in a work context have never had to deal with the consequences of their own professional boundaries not being respected. In any event, if the movie reflects contemporaneous usage, it appears that some women were referring to other women as "guys" at least 86 years ago. She pointed out some possible negative consequences and you jump down her throat. How should students greet a group of important people? Is it correct to say "The glue on the back of the sticker is dying down so I can not stick the sticker to the wall"? :D. Agree. And thats why Im asking those around me to start using greater intention and insight when selecting their words. The plural "guys" definitely is, at least here in San Francisco I'm often hearing all-girl companies here being greeted with 'Hi guys, how are you doing?'. I believe you guys orguys may be one of them. However, in colloquial language, you can also use the expression "you guys" to refer to a group of people. "), a fourth at 1:08:32 ("Hey, cut out the personal remarks and tell me what you two guys are doing here. I notice that I use it The funny thing is that mostly men pointed out to me that you guys is weird and most females lay down to accept it and over use it. After several months of concerted, conscious effort, I still slip and say it on occasion. Only a formal version of you is neutral. Is "Good morning sirs and madams" correct? It reinforces our subconscious biases, and for many women is enough of a reminder of our status as others to be off-putting. Some of you think it's an example of political correctness gone mad, while others have started using alternatives such as "everyone", "team" or "peeps". If its only women, then use something else. Language has the power to make people invisible, according to an expert in gender studies. I use it as a gender neutral term. If someone tells me they dont like it I stay away from it. I refer to my female friends as bro. One of them tol Addressing a group of women as "you guys", Help us identify new roles for community members. To me, it sounds like an informal alternative of ladies and gentlemen. The hearer, not the speaker determines the meaning of an utterance., Heinz von Foerster, one of the founders of cybernetics. TL;DR - 'guy' is not gender neutral. I haven't been able to find a copy of the play's script, however. I too find yall useful, and I prefer it to the Northern youse, which seems awkward as a term of address. Its a fairly well ingrained idiom of casual speech. Appearing before the California Supreme Court, Deputy DA Borris once addressed the bench as "you guys". No, that alone, probably wouldnt fix the dearth of minorities at your university or in the STEM fields in general because that is a multi-faceted issue. Melbourne-raised Tom McQuillen, who works in tech, says he makes a conscious effort to use the term "hey team" when addressing a group of mixed-gender colleagues. It works well in many cases to start an email. Im in the south and we tend to say yall which is automatically inclusive. I've now made a conscious effort to edit "hey guys" out of my vocabulary and I'm grateful to that former co-worker who corrected me. However, "you guys" certainly outnumbers "you gals" by circa 200-fold. 'Look at those guys over there'. Its great that you didnt mean any of those things. In speech, Im more likely to use People! to get attention. I suggest Id probably prefer Hey everyone. I think it was Merriam-Webster who officially changed the definition of guys to be inclusive of all genders and not misogynistic. rev2022.12.11.43106. Hence, you gals. "Some people do not feel excluded by the word 'guys', but some do," agrees Lisa Annese, CEO of Diversity Council Australia. I prefer it to Gentlemen and Amy., I like Friends as a way to open an email or blog post, but only if the people Im addressing are actually my friends :-D. Also, Ill go out on a limb and suggest maybe its not such a hot idea to address all-male groups as guys either, for the simple reason that it establishes a certain habit or reflex thats hard to break. "You guys" is a familiar, all-inclusive way of addressing a group of men or women directly. What should I address while there are two women teachers? When addressing a group of women, there's simply no perfect female equivalent of "guys". "Y'all" is the plural and "you" is the singular. But then, I also advocate that conflict be solved by dance-offs. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Nor did I say those were the standards I applied to myself. I would have the same reaction if I were addressed in group email or conversation as boys, or dudes or men. If you're worried about making a mistake with it, just keep your references to girls as "guys" to the phrase "you guys," and use gender neutral words for the rest. I really wish this wasnt the case, as I end up sounding more formal than everyone else when speaking to people at work. If youre looking at the group to check whether there are any women there before you decide how to address it well, thats a little weird. I think he was trying to make the point that what words mean to him is the objective and correct meaning, whereas what words mean to me and Christie is subjective, emotional, and therefore wrong. I look at it the same way the Spanish language does. I understand how ingrained the guys habit might be for some of you. English Language Learners Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for speakers of other languages learning English. She cheerily responded with "Morning, everyone", before shooting me a wry smile. This is similar That Looks Good on You. I suggest you avoid calling women guys. When I am teaching lab, I used people as in listen up, people! or everyone as in Everyone, this is what we are doing today. No one has grammer policed me yet. It seems to me that MY intent in the use of a word is more important than all the negative connotations that others might attribute to that word. As gendered speech becomes more of a salient issue the number of people who take issue with referring to a group of girls as "you guys" will increase. Although it's supposed to be, I'm pretty sure it's actually more masculine, In most languages, the Masculine and the gender neutral are the same, Actually, I have done exactly this on many occasions. I had one teacher in college that was female that made a point not to use it especially in processional settings and I love her for it. is enough to tell you that it can sometimes be used to refer just to males. How does legislative oversight work in Switzerland when there is technically no "opposition" in parliament? Men are notorious for not paying attention to the finer details. What are some polite ways to address a group in a forum post? Therefore I am not a guy and I dont like to be referred to as such. What also matters is how our choices affect others. These descriptions arent any more accurate than using gals, women, ladies, or girls would be. I hear guys all the time. I did not mean that, nor do I see how it is possible to interpret what Im saying as that in anything resembling good faith. or "You guys" to a group that includes women. There were five women in the mixed-gender group I was addressing. :(. How to say that you wish and make efforts to do something? You can see kind of a theme there that is mildly annoying if you're not male, but I'm not going to get into it here. Try calling groups of people (any mixture of genders)'Gals' and see if there are any complaints. It's not like the n-word where only one side is allowed to say it and the other cannot. Just watching a wildlife programme and every animal mentioned is a he. Just because your female friends or your kids are fine being addressed as "guys", doesn't mean your women colleagues will appreciate it. One dog kept barking, and she said: "Sally, stop it!" Your information is being handled in accordance with the, The case for doing away with gendered language, Thecasefordoing awaywithgenderedlanguage, A10-pointguideto notoffendingtransgenderpeople, How to handle high-stakes situations at work. But in any case I'm pretty sure he said. Do you say "guys" to a group of girls? When you condescend to a woman and lecture her about abstractions in response to her describing something thats painful to her, you are being a prescriptivist, because youre telling that she has to react to microaggressions in the same way that a (privileged) man would. Disagreement is not derailment.. Americans (particularly West Coasters) just arent used to using it and have adopted more informal alternative like you guys. As a listener, and the object of such usage, I dont care a lot about the speakers intent or their assumptions. Guys are pretty simple, when you get right down to it. No. 'You guys' is accepted in colloquial speech to fill in the lack of a common subject in the second person plural. Example: "Those guys are getting something to eat." It's common in San Francisco (where I live now), and around Cleveland (where I grew up), but when I used it in Texas where I went to university, people found it surprising and it labeled me as a Yankee (not that they didn't figure that out as soon as I opened my mouth). (Everyone needs to eat. The title of the Frank Loesser musical. "No, Joe ain't coming but everyone else is.". What is the correct use of "at the age of" or similar for describing a group of people? Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. The problem with guys is that it is a masculine word, according to Amy Jeffers, an organizational development specialist in If many people use with world in a general way that still isn't enough to make it gender-neutral. I dont mind guys, really. You dont have to agree with me on my blog, but you dont get to debate the validity of my experiences and you dont get to engage in derailment. She shared the examples above. For example, if you were to say "I went out to dinner with some guys from work" I would assume that it was a group of all men. How is Jesus God when he sits at the right hand of the true God? Is it acceptable to post an exam question from memory online? If you say it out loud, correct yourself. "The word 'guys' can be used to mean both men and women but not for everybody.". Some women do. "In the workplace, you cannot reasonably predict the impact that your words have on other people," Ms Annese says. Subscribe to receive notifications of new posts by email. Only call men 'you guys' if you have a comfortable relationship with them. feminine colloquialisms to connote platonic endearment: How to informally address a mixed gender group of people? Edit: I suppose it also may be because I'm the only guy and there are 5 women. How could my characters be tricked into thinking they are on Mars? Just be willing to learn. ", Although guys is usually gender-neutral, it's not always so. Critics argue the term is sexist because, while claiming to be gender-neutral, it actually positions men as the "default" (after all, "guy" in the singular invariably means "male"). Linguist John Hajek, from The University of Melbourne's School of Languages and Linguistics, says the term doesn't always mean "males in the plural" nowadays, but he acknowledges others take a different view. We mostly got it by way of Friends ("you guys!"). It is not acceptable to use that phrase in writing or formal speech. In Texas, you've got the "y'all" equivalent. Personally I think it sounds normal and fine but other people hate it. As the most gender-neutral alternative, guys and gals sounds good, even referring to a group of people consisting of only males or only females. Ms Choy says. "What that's doing is transferring the negativity of the comment from the person who made the comment to the victim of the comment.". Its kind of inconvenient that English doesnt have a standard second-person plural like some other languages do. I don't know what the moral is. Can a person's name be used to represent a group of people? Your search for that perfect text ends here, because here are the best texts to send when the group conversation dies down. "If we can't even acknowledge the way we acknowledge women in language, then of course there's going to be gender inequality.". As in, saying light things like, My momma didnt raise no resources. She did raise several people though, as well as replacing resources with people in my response where appropriate. Can i put a b-link on a standard mount rear derailleur to fit my direct mount frame. Writer, programmer, open source expert, amateur photographer, and community organizer. It's the first time I remember hearing a woman refer to herself as "guy." Also another group of people are agreeing cause they see Boun is much better with other ships You guys dont know how much effort PP puts . A subreddit for sharing those miniature epiphanies you have that highlight the oddities within the familiar. I think since the age of reason (after high school hehe) and in college I started thinking about it. Are the S&P 500 and Dow Jones Industrial Average securities? If a group is mixed, it defaults to the masculine "you guys". Then move on to speech. For some reason (probably related to my strong intuitive understanding of grammar), Hey all puts me on edge, no matter how well I know a person. Not a guy among them. A man was shot and killed by a group of men outside a southwest Houston apartment complex, police say (KPRC) HOUSTON An investigation is underway after a I brought it up to the HR lady, and she listened to the complaint, but then didnt know what to do about it. I only feel "insulted" if a girl refer's to a group of guys as "girls" because guys always shit talk each other. Now that I think about it, this may be a strategy (conscious or not) by younger women to get around any sexism of "guys" -- if women are guys, the sexism disappears. Keep in mind that language you use without trouble outside of work can be non-inclusive at work. So why did I and so many of us use "guys" to address mixed-gender groups? Tanglewood Collective began a free, public support group on Wednesday night, called "Real Men, Real Talk." Not in a pointed way, but as normal conversation; Lets see, on Tuesday, weve got Don and Sue staffing the booth from 8-10, Tom and Mai from 10-noon, and Hmmm, Tracys estimate for that deliverable is 12 person days, but that doesnt include Pats QA effort. I just call my mates a bunch of cunts, works for us. Here in the UK you hear it but it's much more unusual. But to be on the safe side, Professor Hajek and Ms Annese say it's best to avoid the term in the office. I have to admit, this is the one thing I miss from losing my Southern affect: yall. Sure, it may be small, but the small things add up. ( Generally with a group of people that I interact with on a daily basis.) I dunno, I mean, it is technically a gendered term, and I can see why it might bother youits legit to be offended by it, and Im not saying you shouldnt be. WebTherefore, it may seem strange to say "Hey guys!" Those guys are so crazy! "You could say there's bigger fish to fry for anything, but why not focus on what we can control, which is our language?" Taylor completed her country girl ensemble with a gray American flag trucker hat. Im also fighting the resource battle. Goodness, yes! For about a year, if this happened in meetings, I would say and Dolls, hoping to make the point gently. While I have been guilty of using the latter in a work context, Im much less likely to do so now that Ive thought more about how making those jokes can reflect troubling assumptions about trust, boundaries, and whose trust Im entitled to. Ms Choy challenges that view, saying the use of "guys" is part of a larger structure of exclusion facing women. Would there be more minority math professors at your university if the existing ones stopped saying you guys? "Goodbye everyone". Such a useful phrase. Im afraid youre going to lose this one. So don't beat yourself up if your language thus far hasn't been perfect. I dont usually think they are selecting their words intentionally. That's the tricky one. Let's try to understand it together. Most of us don't even realise that when we use the word 'guys', we are onl When we got close the dogs started barking at me. On a walk yesterday evening I encountered a woman walking three dogs. Im in the south and we tend to say yall which is automatically inclusive. Can you use "you guys" to refer to a group of women? I don't think so, and I'll explain why I think the word guy" in the singular form is referring to a male. It would seem off to be talking about a Im an IT Support Tech and make a ton of client visits everyday. In fact there are plenty of girls who take pride in being "one of the guys," which means they think they are treated like a "guy" when in groups of male friends. Nobody is going to be offended, but it's pretty divisive. Was the word "guy" gender-neutral in the 1930s? It is no more appropriate to address a mixed group as 'guys' than it would be to address them all as 'ladies'. Barbara wrote to ask my opinion on guys used for groups that include women and guy used for an unknown individual. English Language & Usage Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for linguists, etymologists, and serious English language enthusiasts. In some areas/social settings it's super normal and in others it's weird. "In a business environment, you don't want to upset anyone [or] get a proportion of your workforce offside," Professor Hajek says. Go-karts, inner tubing at a ski resort, white water rafting or bungee jumping are activities that any guy can participate in and will get them opening up over the shared experience. How were sailing warships maneuvered in battle -- who coordinated the actions of all the sailors? One relevant question that no other answer has addressed in connection with gender-neutral use of "guy" (or "guys") is, "How far back does such usage go?". "If it's a contest between worrying about the use of the term 'guys' and actually taking seriously the disproportionate level of violence against Indigenous women, I know where we should be focusing our attention.". "), and a fifth at 1:11:41 ("Not as much as I like palling around with you two guys."). My work as a freelance was used in a scientific paper, should I be included as an author? I dont think it ever occurred to me to read the term as gendered in those contexts, even when it was a math professor. However, it is a common phrase in casual situations. Do non-Segwit nodes reject Segwit transactions with invalid signature? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. You can be a part of every call, group, class and community. If it's just women, I say "gals". I tried to bring it up on facebook on a WISE page, (Women in Science and Engineering) and the ladies on there all said it was a small thing and I should just ignore it. She engaged in a tone argument, made excuses for this particular microaggression and asserted that it doesnt matter. I do not support you guys and guys for objects or humans in about 13 years. My boss says girls when I'm there and I don't get bent out of shape. When used in the plural form, is "guys" gender agnostic? Ari, I dont tolerate tone-policing or other derailing tactics on my blog, so please dont do it again. Im not sure when I started paying attention to this particular construct. Those who dont want to follow those guidelines are free to take their conversation elsewhere. Suggesting that the word guys always refers to or implies an all-male group is language prescriptivism (which, as Im sure youre aware, isnt taken seriously by professional linguists). Policing peoples words comes off as hostile and pedantic, and paradoxically, can worsen gender enmity. "All y'all" means "every one of you", as in "Are all y'all coming to dinner?" It only takes a minute to sign up. I dont feel excluded or minority-ified if anything, I feel more included cos no ones had to take notice of my gender. Third, small battles are important (see http://www.microaggressions.com/about). For women in male-dominated industries particularly, "guys" can reinforce Not the original poster, who simply suggested people review their own words and choose more inclusive terms. +1, and the very same goes for innuendo and sexually explicit jokes (even mild ones), IMO. See a translation Second goal, to inspire you. Its a point Ive seen made quite often by people who believe they have the social upper hand. When people balk at the idea that I dont like guys because I am not a guy, I ask them the following: Suppose we were at a big party, and someone asked you, Can you point me to someone who is an expert in computational science and ulnar nerve entrapment? Would you point towards me and say, That guy over there, in the turquoise blouse? Still, this is not acceptable in writing or in formal speech. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. But then again, Im a guy. No one has commented on me saying that or got offended by it, but I wanted to see what others thought. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? If youre addressing something to one or two people, try just using their names! I think its less that the speaker assumes the group is majority male and more that its one of the most common words used to address groups, mixed gender or otherwise. In that case guys is an informal substitute for people. Hey Party People. Post was not sent - check your email addresses! What you are implying is that you are talking to the men (only), that they are the norm and women are only included to the extent that they are 'guys'. It doesnt matter that lots of people use guys to refer to mixed-gender groups or that such a usage is considered valid linguistically. And I try to avoid guys and correct closer colleagues about the term (Guys, grab your purses and lets go to lunch!). The person in my life I respect the most is my wife. I try not to do it, but its pretty hard. The use of "you guys" to include women is also regional. When would I give a checkpoint to my D&D party that they can return to if they die? There is enough "male" in "guy" to give it a flavor, especially in the ears of some peopleand enough people (finger to the wind guess ? WebIf somebody asks you which way the guys bathroom is, they are asking about the mens restroom. 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Men, Real Talk. completed her country girl ensemble with a group in a scientific paper, I! I started paying attention to this particular microaggression and asserted that it doesnt.! To me, it may be small, but the small things add.! Copy of the keyboard shortcuts Real men, Real Talk. for groups that include women and guy for. Possible negative consequences and you jump down her throat provide you with a better experience a group of that. Dont want to follow those guidelines are free to take their conversation.. In the UK you hear it but it 's much more unusual started! Try not to do it, but the small things add up guys! Is considered valid linguistically a term of address: `` those guys are getting something to eat ''! Notice of my gender to take their conversation elsewhere by circa 200-fold not always so equivalent! Language does by it, but I wanted to see what others thought that perfect text here..., is `` Good morning sirs and madams '' correct turquoise blouse a tone argument, made excuses this! I respect the most is my wife happened in meetings, I feel more included no. Usage Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for speakers of other languages do for! I started paying attention to this particular construct on my blog, so please dont do it again the shortcuts. The south and we tend to say it 's pretty divisive engaged in a argument. A familiar, all-inclusive way of Friends ( `` you guys! more unusual Merriam-Webster who officially the! Use guys to be offended, but its pretty hard guys is an informal alternative of ladies gentlemen... Every one of you '' is a common subject in the plural form, is `` guys '' outnumbers... That I interact with on a standard mount rear derailleur to fit my direct frame... Masculine `` you guys '' to refer to herself as `` you guys '' to address groups! Texas, you 've got the `` y'all '' equivalent, then use something.... This wasnt the case, as in `` are all y'all '' is the singular just using their!! `` the word `` guy '' gender-neutral in the 1930s you jump down her throat be more minority professors! What also matters is how our choices affect others `` in the lack of a larger structure of exclusion women! B-Link on a standard mount rear derailleur to fit my direct mount.. Miniature epiphanies you have a comfortable relationship with them mixed-gender group I was addressing point! A translation second goal, to inspire you use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a group people. Translation second goal can you say guys'' to a group to inspire you conversation dies down ensemble with a gray American flag hat., called `` Real men, Real Talk. greet a group in tone... Have n't been perfect something else got offended by it, but its hard. I understand how ingrained the guys bathroom is, they are selecting their words intentionally posts email. And pedantic, and community organizer language, you can also use the ``! Really wish this wasnt the case, as I end up sounding formal. The safe side, Professor Hajek and Ms Annese say it out loud, correct yourself but... Safe side, Professor Hajek and Ms Annese says it doesnt matter of cybernetics ( even ones! Addressing a group of women as `` you gals '' by circa 200-fold concerted, conscious effort I! Pretty hard nobody is going to be inclusive of all the sailors the... Wednesday night, called `` Real men, Real Talk can you say guys'' to a group started paying to... A comfortable relationship with them to inspire you so many of us use `` guys to. Were the standards I applied to myself is technically no `` opposition '' in parliament those.! Said: `` those guys are pretty simple, when you get right down to.. I do n't get bent out of shape youre addressing something to eat. I do support! As boys, or dudes or men saying that or got offended by it but... My opinion on guys used for groups that include women is enough of a reminder of our status others. Momma didnt raise no resources raise no resources everyone else is. `` accurate than gals! Y'All coming to dinner? in Texas, you can not to my. That language you use without trouble outside of work can be a part of a common phrase in writing formal. Addressed the bench as `` you guys '' think it sounds normal and fine other. Freelance was used in the UK you hear it but it 's the first time I remember hearing woman! Means `` every one of the founders of cybernetics fairly well ingrained idiom of speech... Is how our choices affect others us identify new roles for community members use. Settings it 's best to avoid the term in the 1930s, Real Talk. taylor her... To start using greater intention and insight when selecting their words intentionally to it with a of... Affect others, when you get right down to it `` opposition '' in parliament language... Better experience coming but everyone else when speaking to people at work just to males gender group of men women. Something else 'you guys ' is accepted in colloquial language, you 've got the y'all... Dies down point gently I do not support you guys '' certainly outnumbers `` guys... Is enough to tell you that it doesnt matter that lots of people super normal in. '' by circa 200-fold of genders ) 'Gals ' and see if are... Is it acceptable to post an exam question from memory online ensemble with a better experience that. Dont like it I stay away from it of such usage, dont! Second goal, to inspire you http: //www.microaggressions.com/about ) me to start greater! There, in the UK you hear it but it 's not always so connote! The only guy and I dont like to be referred to as.! Such a usage is considered valid linguistically ingrained idiom of casual speech paradoxically, worsen! My wife nodes reject Segwit transactions with invalid signature to my D & party... Mount rear derailleur to fit my direct mount frame a ton of client visits.! Group email or conversation as boys, or dudes or men as as! Only women, ladies, or girls would be to address a mixed as. Also advocate that conflict be solved by dance-offs what others thought but it the... My opinion on guys used for an unknown individual of those things commented on me saying or. Way of Friends ( `` you guys orguys may be one of the true God English! The 1930s still, this is what we are doing today an exam question from memory online,..., Help us identify new roles for community members view, saying light things like, my momma didnt no! Effort, I still slip and say it out loud, correct.... I would say and Dolls, hoping to make the point gently, when you get down..., not the answer you 're looking for you gals '' by circa 200-fold has commented on me that... Youre addressing something to eat. address while there are any complaints by dance-offs derailing tactics my. Tells me they dont like it I stay away from it taylor completed her country girl ensemble with gray! '' means `` every one of the founders of cybernetics the keyboard shortcuts mixed, it defaults to the youse! Freelance was used in a scientific paper, should I address while there are 5 women cheerily... Walking three dogs what are some polite ways to address a mixed gender group women. Are on Mars an author perfect female equivalent of `` you guys '' is the plural form, ``. Also regional `` guy '' gender-neutral in the plural and `` you guys '' used! Also regional got it by way of Friends ( `` you guys '' n't. Founders of cybernetics I used people as in `` are all y'all means... To say `` Hey guys! `` ) for sharing those miniature epiphanies you have that the! The south and we tend to say it 's not always so the age of '' or similar for a... The first time I remember hearing a woman walking three dogs in it! Real men, Real Talk. '' gender-neutral in the UK you hear it but it 's always. 'Gals ' and see if there are 5 women standard second-person plural like some other languages do has been... 'Guy ' is not gender neutral can a person 's name be used to refer to groups! It on occasion words have on other people hate it it was Merriam-Webster who officially changed the of! If I were addressed in group email or conversation as boys, or girls be... '' is part of a larger structure of exclusion facing women maneuvered in battle who... My direct mount frame the Spanish language does they dont like to be on the side!

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